The WhyPAR Podcast
Episode 5: “Beauty emerges out of commitment”: How Youth Collectivities Create Beauty, A Conversation between Rangoato Hlasane and Rubén Gaztambide-Fernández (Part Three)
Citation:
Raza, Naima. ““Beauty emerges out of commitment”: How Youth Collectivities Create Beauty, A Conversation between Rangoato Hlasane and Rubén Gaztambide-Fernández (Part Three).” Produced by Rubén Gaztambide-Fernández and Sarah Switzer at The Youth Research Lab. The WhyPAR Podcast. March 2, 2021. Podcast, MP3 audio, https://youthresearchlab.org/whypar
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Host: Welcome to The WhyPAR podcast, a project of the Youth Research Lab at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education.
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Host: In the WhyPAR podcast, youth participatory action research practitioners discuss the ethical dimensions of conducting YPAR. In our podcast, we explore issues of co-leading YPAR projects, building relationships, power dynamics, and sharing our work together. The Youth Research Lab is located in Toronto on the traditional territories of the Huron-Wendat, the Seneca, and most recently, the Mississaugas of the Credit River.
Ra: So the program is not about the participants alone with the facilitators in the space. It's more of when people in their life, realize the commitment and therefore they themselves can communicate what is beautiful.
Host: Hello everyone! My name is Naima, and I’m the host of the WhyPAR podcast. I am currently a graduate assistant here at the Youth Research Lab and I’m also a YPAR practitioner with experience working in schools.
Today’s episode is the third in a three-part conversation between Rangoato Hlasane (or Ra) and Rubén Gaztambide-Fernández. Ra is a YPAR practitioner, co-founder of Keleketla! Library and a lecturer at the University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. Rubén is a YPAR practitioner, the Director of the Youth Research Lab, and a professor at the University of Toronto.
In this episode, they’re going to be discussing how youth collectivities create beauty, and specifically, within Ra’s program, the Keleketla! Library in Johannesburg. As I mentioned in the last episode, Keleketla was based at Johannesburg’s historic Drill Hall between 2008-2015, and was actually the site where Nelson Mandela and 156 prominent freedom fighters were tried for treason in 1956. Keleketla! is now based at King Kong, a multidisciplinary arts space and concert venue which is also in Johannesburg.
Together, Ra and Rubén will explore: What does it mean to make things beautiful within youth collectives, particularly within a context of material precarity? How do we create, shift, and accumulate narratives in youth collectives? How are our ethical commitments to anti-racism challenged while facilitating youth collectives?
This conversation was recorded outdoors in Johannesburg.
And with that, let’s jump in!
Rubén: So I wanna, I wanna, let's, let's talk about beauty for a second.
Ra: Beauty?
Rubén: About beauty. Cause you talked about the importance of creating beautiful things. And, you know, a couple of times when we were talking about, during the, during the time together, last time we talked about the importance of design. Most of you were talking about... fonts, coherence, coherence to artifacts, all these, all these elements that go into the production of objects that we want to share.
And there's a tension isn't there between…? Well, you know, first of all, I think there's a different understanding of beauty that could be operating here. But, on the one hand, there is this sort of spontaneity that characterizes, the work that you're describing, this, this being able to take advantage of this precious moments of being, being in the right place at the right time, you know, the person who asks that was hears their children's singing and wants to do something... the relationships that emerge and being able to take care of that.
And things that are really out of your control in terms… in terms of being able to do good design, which is not supposed to be out of your control. Planning is all about deciding what elements you want to bring together, right? And, and, and, and, and what you're describing. And in my experience of doing this work, it's, it's not designed, you know, it's, it's very much about, about, about taking advantage of opportunities. So I wonder about how do we come, how do we understand beauty in that context? So how do we understand beauty, or making things beautiful, both its importance, its relevance for the people that we care about, that we're committed to and, and how it, how it works in relationship to spontaneity, to relationships, to making do with what's available, particularly in a context of material precarity. Does that make sense?
Ra: For me, I think what has been evident is that, beauty emerges out of commitment. Really, you know? And therefore, beauty emerges out of that which has been accumulating over time, not accumulation in the capitalist sense, but, in the sense of, of building an environment for narrative plus stories, that's what it's been beautiful. That's, that's really what has been beautiful.
So for the parents to come and they're like pointing teachers towards, towards that day of showcase. You see pictures of the heads of children, and you see parents carrying their children, and waiting… that’s beauty. It’s that a group of people have been able to persuade each other about the importance of something. So people have been able to bring each other to an understanding of what this thing is. So in that sense, it's not that the production, the show, the showcase is necessarily beautiful…
So the program is not about the participants alone with the facilitators in the space. It's more of when people in their life realize the commitment and therefore they themselves can communicate what is beautiful. But then when then we make things like this that are beautiful design. It's not that you're always put in. There is because actually things have been accumulated to then be able to arrive at this. So then if you think about this past week and those postcards, it's not because they arrived out of nothing. They arrived out of the fact that actually so much has been generated that we really want to make the artifact that reflects the beauty of what happened.
And in fact, the opposite of beauty that has led to this material that cannot be designed, the, the grandeur, the broader design, the previous design of being together, of generating this material. It's not so visible. And yet it is in a sense that now actually the artifacts themselves show the depth and the level of engagement, right? Even if we ourselves, we know that this is far from polished, it has typos… So the beauty is in that, and then, then to make the artifacts look beautiful, then becomes important in a place where, where people have been dehumanized.
So if you look at the Drill Hall as a space that is neglected a lot of that, then making the artifacts actually beautiful is important in that sense. So, so that's really how I think about beauty. The beauty is in the commitment, which means the resilience.
Rubén: Right.
Ra: Which I'm resistant of because somehow Black people, or for the colonizer, there's always this thing about innovation as an outcome of resilience or something. There's always this thing whereby it'll be romanticized and essentialized that our beauty has to be made out of the fact that we had to be resilient and face adversity to arrive at beauty. So it's that balance. It's not an easy one, but, but for us to make sure that we make things really beautiful, it's actually to reinstate that actually we have it, you know, it's like when you're talking about resisting an attempt to think, but rather in place that we are thinkers, I used it in the classroom today, yeah.
Rubén: I want to, I want to go back to this idea of creating conditions for narratives to accumulate that you refer to us as a source of freedom of beauty. And also, I want to revisit this. I want to revisit that. And I want to revisit this, this tension around, around beauty merging out of struggle. And at the same time, not collapsing our entire condition of being to struggle, right? How do we, those of us who have experienced colonization in our skin, Black, Brown, Indigenous people? You know, then there, the narrative of beauty out of suffering is so compelling. And yet it's not all there is.
Not everything that we create is out of suffering. You know, our, our, our, our experience is not all suffering. And, and, and there's an ethic there, right? That I think, uh, oftentimes translates into making choices about who we allow in and who, and who we keep out of the spaces. Because if that understanding, right? If you are coming in with the idea that everything there is to work with here is suffering, then you're out.
Ra: Yeah.
Rubén: Anyways, we can go back to this, you know, creating the conditions for narratives to accumulate which is beautiful, and which is, I think… Let's talk a bit, let's talk about this idea. How do we create the conditions for narratives to accumulate? All right. Maybe that was not the words that you used, but it was something, something along… That's how I remember it.
Ra: They are. So, so there was a program that was formed by… so some of them started in 2008 when we started and others joined along the way. So one of them - and I keep referring to her, and now I'm going to name her cause she's in the book… So one can cite her, there is a whole process there and a protocol - Emma Ramashala, she started the program in 2012 and this after, because she's been there since 2008 and she said that she came to me and said - it’s a respectability thing - so she, she calls me Uncle Ra. And she goes uncle Ra, like I want to start a program with all the, because there were many different programs, dance, music, whatever embed attempts. She was like really saying that they're going to start a program where all the participants from the different groups come together on Wednesday afternoons to just speak about our lives, that we are now in different programs. And we come together when it's time to showcase. But I want a space where we can now all talk, just talk, just talk and talk, and we’ll call it Teen Talk. Just to check on with each other and stuff like that.
And for me that is like really one of the highlights, to feel like actually, here is a space. Yes, we are making art. And yes, we are learning some printmaking, some designs, some these and dance, et cetera. But actually, because we are not quite a coherent group of different collectives, perhaps now there is a need for us to come talk about what's going on with our lives as teenagers. Being misunderstood. But, but she felt that was important. And she felt that like, this is the space where this can happen. And, and I mean, that developed into, into all kinds of things, including another program that is actually called Teen Talk where they all came together. There's a YouTube of it. We should also send it to you, which, which was really significant where we invented this now new collectivity that imagines because of years of coalescing and knowing each other across programs in which the subject to us was that migration.
And they, they basically were living there in Keleketla. That then got to a place where all we do is provide facilitation, but they design the whole program, right? And design being important here, because then this means that instead of a facilitator who may, or you know, who, who may provide a structure of some kind, they, they were able to be in a space where they draw from each others' knowledges and, and bring in, bring that together. So that's where basically prior knowledges, bodily, as well as conceptually are able to come together to… yeah, create a narrative of some kind. Right. So, so that is significant because particularly in this neighborhood, but also… in terms of the schooling system, where, where the ability to, to narrate multiple histories, it's not always possible. But also because of the time, speaking of teens who, because of age also feel misunderstood, this place also feels like a place where they can create a narrative of their own.
And in this case then, and particularly because this participant comes and proposes that this is not a space to do different workshops and art. Rather, it is a place to speak, that the condition had been created, a collective, a sense of being together has been created so that people of the same age, in the sense, can come and share about their difference of, you know, spiritual being, mental being, and other beings. The space has been created for them to realize that actually now we can come together to discuss that.
So, so that's the rationale that in order to create a diversity in conflict and, and dialogue, and debate and, and, and sort of relevance beyond a parochial view, you have to be in a collective. And also that the collective becomes a support structure, right? So let's say maybe when I speak about - and this has happened - where people, like when I speak about things that have to do with religion in the family and how that affects them, maybe in relation to gender, right? The collective then becomes the support structure where they can feel freer to express that, which they may not do at home. So then the collective becomes a supposed strategy in the sense, and, and that then enables a new narrative to emerge. So this, this, this creation of conditions for narrative to emerge and be central, and sort of lead, lead and go beyond the artifact has always been central. And at the same time, in a sense, release too, like the hip hop cipher.
Rubén: Yes. And you talked about this structure of the hip hop cipher as sort of being the, in a sense, the source of that notion of collective. But I want to push back a bit on here because we also, we also don't enter the collective innocently. And I think the collective, you know… I mean, in the sense, the arc is an interesting example. You know, we, we come together for a week, we're able to create a space that's very productive. That's really fulfilling. That creates a certain affect. It's also a space that it, that doesn't have to sustain itself over a long period of time. And in a sense, we almost cut it. You know, we, we, we are able to not enter into a space where conflict emerges. You know, I mean, it does, it does in the long distance and slowly, but, you know, there's a certain quality to a collective that has a beginning and an end and a contained space that allows for certain things to happen that, and in a sense to avoid, the ways in which collectives also invariably and perhaps naturally…
Ra: Implode…
Rubén: Implode, or where sort of this, you know, relationships of power, sexism, homophobia, racism, colorism… You know… So I, you know, so I wonder about that too. I wonder about the, is there a danger in sort of romanticizing those collectives? Is there, how do we navigate, again this is a facilitation question. How do we, how do we facilitate? Cause these are highly facilitated collectives in a sense and this, that space for the narrative to accumulate does not happen autonomously without the facilitation of someone like you. So how do we, so again, so yeah, so let's get to the facilitation question. How do we, how is it that, what are the skills, what are the techniques, what are the, what are the sort of really practical, embodied, verbal ways that we facilitate a collective process that doesn't decline back into the kinds of dynamics that happen outside of that collective. Right? That sustains that commitment to, to anti-racism. You see what I'm saying?
Ra: Yeah, yeah…
Rubén: Like, because otherwise, if we just say, “Oh, it's the collective and it's beautiful” and “these things happen”... I fear that that, actually, my, my worry is that it invisibilized the really difficult work of actually facilitating. You see what I’m getting at?
Ra: Yes. Yes. And to be honest, I'm struggling with this… there’s a thing of community of practice that, that is, that is quite undocumented and perhaps undertheorized, from, from here, from this region. But also, I think from the continent of Africa as well. And this is about who knows what, in relation to who’s - or maybe even in contrast to - who’s participating. And how these two can come together. Because just because somebody is doing the organizing of the facilitation, doesn't mean that they're doing the participation. So, you know, some people are there to, to immerse themselves and enjoy the work that has been organized by others, but actually they know what is required for the thing to be there. And for me, that's where in the work of facilitation becomes challenging, but also then can also lead to the change of narrative. Because the coming to practice is still [to] seek what they know, right? What they know should be happening.
And here I’m drawn to an experience when me and other colleagues were working on a festival out about Indigenous music in Limpopo, where I come from. It was organized by us and we, we are students, and actually we are also post-graduate students, we are concerned about the future of this Indigenous music, called Kiba Dinaka and we make a festival as a way of reviving that Kiba Dinaka. We're also thinking about Linda Smith in the process. So, so we make a festival. It was beautiful, right? Like it's absolutely great. And then during the festival, everybody's happy and one elder comes and asks, well, congratulates us, and asks when is going to be the next one, because yeah, we don't have enough.
And we say it was around November next year, next November, next year, same time. And he says no, no, no, no, no. That's not how you do it. This is an elder. He says, no, that's not how you do it. You must do this twice a year. One around May, to thank the ancestors for the rain, and then another one in September to ask the ancestors for the rain. And that was like really mind blowing for me because I was like, first and foremost, this challenges festival, um… You know, frequency, like, you know, in general, they’re annual or biannual or triannual. So, you know, so to do a festival twice a year is presenting a different kind of geopolitical knowledge system about what the festival does. And for me, this also one of the places where thinking with your texts becomes interesting in that, this is a festival where it's a music festival, so this is a musical practice, music and dance practice.
But, but you know, it has a function of, of asking for the rain and thanking them, successful habits. Right? So, so, so there's, there's a, there's a cosmology there, which is about a symbolic practice that does something. Um, so there's a symbolism there, right there, which, which, which, you know, which we look at and we'll be like, okay, so here we are looking at symbolic practices that have protocols, right.
You know, you must do it at this time at another time, let's do it this time. And this, this goes beyond funders calls, funders reports, what are you going to write for the funder? You know, you know, you write to the funder that it rains. So the festival is a success. The funder wants to see how many people came. Which are really like, really about this shifting of, of geographies, of knowledge, geographies of evaluation, of analysis. Of, of, of, yeah. So, but, but at the same time, this is operating when things are shifting. So young people want to start this thing and they want to call it the festival, but actually there's a name for such gathering of music in that tradition is called Kosha. It's not a festival, but we want to call it a festival because we want to bring, because we see it’s dying and we want to revitalize in terms of what Linda Tuhiwai Smith calls, in terms of those projects of decolonizing.
Right? So in terms of revitalization, so we thought to name it this way, then it’s going, to bring these, these young audience who now bring other things that then change the narrative, which then desteps and disrupts the other participants in the community of practice who want to see something else. So, and this is where the tension of Indigeneity and, and other, I don't know, call them contemporary practices, come and complicate the question.
Rubén: Yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, I think, I think they're in a sense, in a sense they're both Indigenous practices. We might want to call one traditional and one contemporary one, and it's certainly a tension. Right? I mean, I think, yeah, this is the complicated question of the role of the Elders in culture. And… recovering practices versus creating ones. Yeah. And how that sort of, even that recovery process is itself created creation. Like, you know, do it the same…
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Host: Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of The WhyPAR podcast. So,I’m struck by the way that Ra talked about beauty as being created relationally - from engagement and bringing people together… I’m also still thinking about the conversation had around how things like beautiful designs or demonstrations are created by an accumulation of moments and interactions. This makes me think about how we are actively working, re-working and shifting relationships within youth spaces, and that’s really what this work is about. Stay tuned for our next episode and see you next time!