The WhyPAR Podcast
Episode 8: “Now that we were conducting the research, it felt more like power”: On Doing YPAR Before and During COVID-19 - A Conversation between Maddy Ross and Jaden McGregor, Luisa Gonzalez, Annie Silva, Lainey Rios, and Valeria Pineda (Part Two)
Citation:
Ross, Madeleine. ““Now that we were conducting the research, it felt more like power”: On Community and Conducting YPAR During and About the COVID-19 Pandemic - A Conversation between Maddy Ross and Jaden McGregor, Luisa Gonzalez, Annie Silva, Lainey Rios, and Valeria Pineda (Part Two).” Produced by Rubén Gaztambide-Fernández and Sarah Switzer at The Youth Research Lab. The WhyPAR Podcast. October 4, 2021. Podcast, MP3 audio, https://youthresearchlab.org/whypar
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Host: Welcome to The WhyPAR podcast, a project of the Youth Research Lab at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education.
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Host: In the WhyPAR podcast, youth participatory action research practitioners discuss the ethical dimensions of conducting YPAR. In our podcast, we explore issues of co-leading YPAR projects, building relationships, power dynamics, and sharing our work together. The Youth Research Lab is located in Toronto on the traditional territories of the Huron-Wendat, the Seneca, and most recently, the Mississaugas of the Credit River.
Jaden: So what we wanted to do is kind of look at people like us and see how they're being affected, because a lot of the research that we found, focused on the deficit and I guess the negative ways, not how people were being risen up and, how they've succeeded in a time like this, but how they're being brought down.
Host: Welcome everyone! My name is Maddy, and I’m a co-host of the WhyPAR Podcast. I’m a PAR practitioner and currently a research assistant here at the Youth Research Lab.
This episode closes our two-part series with five youth researchers who were part of the Youth Solidarities Project at the Youth Research Lab. In this episode, Valeria, Luisa, Lainey, Jaden, and Annie share about their experience conducting a YPAR project during and about the COVID-19 pandemic to understand the experiences of their Indigenous and Latinx peers in what is known as the Greater Toronto Area.
They reflect on the challenges of translating the embodied and collaborative experience of YPAR into a digital space, and how the process of storytelling and building community in the project was itself a coping mechanism for them to remain strong amidst the isolation of the lockdown. We also discuss the values that they bring to this work including the crucial role of authenticity, and the rewarding experience of disseminating their research in both community and academic environments.
This conversation was recorded over Zoom.
And with that, let’s jump in!
Host: I’m wondering if you can tell me a little but about the work that you’re doing right now.
Jaden: I can say a little bit about it. So one thing that we wanted to look at, because in the initial stages of trying to figure out what we wanted to focus on is, lack of representation for Indigenous and Latinx youth and how they are being affected by COVID-19. So what we wanted to do is kind of look at people like us and see how they're being affected, because a lot of the research that we found, focused on the deficit and I guess the negative ways, not how people were being risen up and, how they've succeeded in a time like this, but how they're being brought down. It's important of course, to like look at those aspects, but we want it to look at that, the positives of it. So that's kind of the basis of our research we've been doing.
Luisa: Yeah. After we decided, what we were going to do, we actually recruited people who had been in YPAR night schools, the last couple of years, and we interviewed them on how they were handling the situation. And I think that was really good because it shows that like, YPAR really opens a variety of opportunities for the participants. Like, look at us, you know, in that first meeting, we would have never seen ourselves being the facilitators at some point. But I think that was an amazing, now that we were conducting the research, it felt more like power, you know. We talked about how it is important to have a variety of coping skills during this pandemic. And we determined that being participants of that, research was actually in a way a coping mechanism because it helped you realize that it wasn't just the number of cases, the number of deaths, the number of this cause on the news, there's a lot of just numbers, it's very impersonal. But when we did this research, we got to put a face to the struggles, to the positives and to the negatives. And I think that is very important, especially because we have been in isolation and we don't really see a lot of people or, you know, even what our neighbour is going through.
Valeria: I really like what Luisa said, about how we went about our, project. Also, I remember when we first were starting the project and we were deciding what to do. I remember we had a conversation about how during, throughout the pandemic, like we heard a lot about a lot of, like, we heard people talk about a lot of things, but we didn't really hear from youth. And we didn't really hear what youth had to say about the pandemic and what they were going through or how they were coping with it. I feel like, you know, obviously youth aren't as heard sometimes and we wanted to like, kind of be those people to, to speak on the, on youth and interview other youth and, and see how they are doing during the pandemic. And we felt, I felt it was very important, to do that. And I feel like it's something that should be done more.
Host: So I want to ask, what values you bring to this work and what values you embody while you’re doing participatory action research?
Valeria: For me, I feel like what I appreciate about YPAR and, about the work we did was like inclusiveness. Like we, like we talked about earlier, like we didn't really see any, programs or anything that, you know, was dedicated to Latinx people in Toronto. So I feel like, I mean, considering I study social work, I, I, I'm all for inclusiveness. I feel like we kind of lack that sometimes, you know, some communities are left out. So I feel like when we, when I began YPAR and I started to get to know the YPAR projects and, participated myself, I feel like inclusiveness was something that was very important to me.
Luisa: That was, like Valeria said, that has also been very important to me. My parents don't have higher education and I think seeing like Rubén and it's, it was he's, you know, he's, he was like funny. And he was, he felt like in a way, like, you know, like the uncle and, to me seeing that he was, had a PhD, he's actually a professor at OISE. I knew those people existed, but it didn't click, you know, it just didn't click. And I think that representation is important because of those reasons. You don't realize that you need it until maybe you see it.
Jaden: I like to look at YPAR as a family. And I think one thing that I took personally from it, from an Indigenous perspective is community. And I think one thing you wanted to focus on in our research and just like getting to know each other and through the whole process of it all is building this community, kind of connecting with one another and being a support structure. That was a part of our research. We've wanted to build a community through that. So people could have that support in a time like this.
Annie: Yeah. And I think, you know, cause we're all going through, different, stages in our lives and different troubles, that it was so important to have, empathy, especially when talking to other, you know, the people that we interviewed because sometimes people put a front to relate to others. But during these times, you know, it was really hard, to, to put a front because, I think that a lot of people didn't have the opportunity to talk, talk about what they were going through. Cause everyone was just inside. And if, sometimes, some people don't have a very good, you know, relationship with their parents or their siblings, like within their families. So, the fact that they had this opportunity to open up and I think most of them have felt very comfortable just to talk about it because at the end, you know, they expressed that this was even a coping mechanism. It was very important for us as researchers to, you know respect that, and be empathetic towards it and have them have their space to be able to talk it out.
Valeria: I wanted to touch on what Jaden said about community. I felt it was so important for well, I'm not speaking for the whole Latinx community, but for me, and I know for others, I felt like it was so impactful to, you know, connect with, people, part of the Indigenous community because we're all immigrants or kids of immigrants, and a lot of immigrants when they come to Canada, they don't understand or know about Indigenous people and the history of colonization. And I feel like it's so important to, to know about that. Especially because we're visitors on their land. So it made me think a lot about like all the positive impacts and different ways Indigenous people and newcomers can connect with each other. So I felt it was really nice and like, I just really appreciated learning about the real history of Canada and connecting with Elders and part, people, part of the Indigenous community. I really appreciated that. And I feel like it impacted me like for the rest of my life.
Host: So I want to ask you about the role of authenticity, in your involvement in PAR, cause I hear you saying that you felt like you could be your authentic self in this space, but also that the relationships you had with each other and with the facilitators fostered authenticity. Yeah, what, what does authenticity look like in these spaces?
Annie: I think in my opinion, authenticity would be, especially when I'm talking about like a teacher figure, because they were also like our teachers or our mentors, is like genuinely being interested in what they're sharing with us or teaching with us. Because I know I had a lot of teachers at my school that, my high school that they were kind of just want to get it over with. So put out all the information and then, you know, they had to say something like, ‘Oh, if you need any help, you know, come at lunch or come after school’ and you would, and it'd be like, the, the idea that if I didn't understand the topic, that it, it was a bad thing, and they would just give a brief explanation. And with that, I would understand everything like automatically, it was just a repeating of what they said before. But if, you know, you had a concern or you didn't understand the topic, or you just wanted to say your thoughts about anything, it was so free and, you didn't really feel judged or anything. You, you felt like you were contributing to the discussion that we had and they supported that 100%. So that's what I, I felt like they were very authentic in that sense. Yeah.
Jaden: One thing for me personally, that I kind of took away from it is, a lot of the stuff we did kind of forced you to kind of be more authentic and kind of show your true colours and who you are as a person, kind of how you perceive the research we're doing, what we're kind of learning. That's one thing I really liked because I kind of pushed myself forward and be more open and kind of express what I'm thinking. And I think that one thing that YPAR kind of does, like get that authentic side of people's perspectives and experiences.
Host: You, you talk about that almost as if it was a challenge. Were there other challenges that you experienced in the project or in the projects that you worked on? And how did you overcome those challenges?
Luisa: For me, I think it was, for the presentation we did at Baltimore. I think the biggest challenge was not being able to think that you could do it. It was, it sounds very big and I was just in Grade 12, it was this huge conference and there were a lot of important people and it was, I think it was hard to imagine how you would fit into that environment.
Annie: When, if we're talking about like challenges, talking about like the, the project that we just finished as a group. I think it was, you know, Zoom was a big challenge. I think it still continues to be, less than before, but, as well as, you know, coordinating what each person would do and what would we even do? Like, like even in the beginning, like, what are we even going to do? So even like, just challenges of thinking about what we would do in the beginning. But at the end, you know, we ended up picking something more, close to us, which I think was, a really good thing. Cause I think we, even us as researchers, we got a lot out of it, especially, the stories of other people. And I think it made us think a lot about, you know, our situations individually as well, which are also very challenging at this point.
Valeria: I, I kind of want to back what, Annie was saying. I was thinking that, that that was one of the challenges even like learning to do research ourselves, like as the youth part of the program and also getting used to the role of like youth researchers. I feel like, it's not very common, like I guess in society, I don't know. I felt like it was kind of interesting and different. So getting used to that and learning different research method, methods, and also like, like Annie said, choosing topics for me was also very difficult because I want to be so inclusive and try to reach out to, or, or have participants from different areas and everything. But, I guess I had to learn that it's not that easy. But that's exactly why I feel like YPAR is so important and, and projects like these that have a positive impact on youth and represent youth are, are very necessary, in Toronto. Because, you know, I feel like there's a lot of people that could, could benefit from this. Yeah.
Host: What was the transition like from doing in-person PAR in a classroom setting to an online setting like Zoom? We know that PAR is so hands-on and collaborative. How did you begin to shape the online space and figure out different ways of working together?
Lainey: So for, I think it was me and Valeria, the second year we did YPAR we were youth mentors. So we were actually got to be part of the team and help the instructors kind of lead the class. And every Friday we had Zoom calls regardless because we couldn’t all get together pre-pandemic. So I think that kind of helped us to be familiar with Zoom already, like the platform. And then since Luisa, Jaden and Annie had already kind of been doing a little bit of Zoom through school and when the pandemic hit, I think we were all pretty familiar with the platform. So in terms of using Zoom, it wasn't that hard though. Anything was hard that was hard about it was our actually doing our research and engaging people. I remembered Rubén got somebody to come in and talk to us about her experience of doing, gathering research through Zoom and doing like focus groups or big Zoom calls, kind of, she gave me some pointers of how to engage people, because the big thing about YPAR is engaging the audience and, you know, making everyone feel like they're part of it. So I think it took a little bit of time for us to actually think about, okay, how many people can we do on a Zoom call without it getting like awkward or without people getting uncomfortable because some of them didn't know each other. And the other thing was gender. Should we keep it a balance? Should we do, just boys in one call, or girls on one call? You gotta think about a lot of things just to make sure it flows really well. And you have to learn when to step in if there's like this awkward silence, should I step in? Are they thinking? I begin to say something or is it just going to be silent? So it definitely took a little bit of time, but I think we did pretty well.
Valeria: Yeah. Like Lainey said, we had been using Zoom from before. But I feel like for the participants and stuff, it was kind of hard because I feel like YPAR was something for the most part people look forward to because it was so interactive and very genuine. And the environment was very positive because we ate together and we talked before we even started anything. And, I feel like that was nice. It was kind of relaxing. So I feel like when it was online, like all the other stuff was taking away from us. So I guess we had to like, find a way to continue to create that positive space and try to, you know, enjoy it as much as we could. So we did continue doing like the Rose and the Thorn. So obviously that was helpful because that's something everybody, enjoyed. But it was kinda difficult and different. Like it did make me miss seeing everybody and being in a group and everything. And like Lainey said, getting used to, you know, awkward silences and, things like that. It was, it was kinda difficult, but we, we did it.
Host: What are some of the ways that you know a project is successful when you’re doing it, despite encountering those challenges, what do you experience that lets you know it’s working or that you’re doing something that’s meaningful?
Jaden: I think the simplest thing is when people start to ask questions and then become more engaged, you can kind of tell that people want to hear what you're saying. And kind of want to understand research and also what you have, purpose and kind of the background behind it. I would say that's the basis of it. More engagement equals more interest. And I think that's when you've kind of struck, something that you should dig deeper into.
Lainey: Yeah. Kind of what Jaden said, like when people come back or when they want to talk to you after you've talked about your presentation. I remember in Baltimore, some people came up to us and asked if they could have our email. I was like, my email? And they were like, ‘Yeah, in case I have any questions after. We really liked your presentation.’ It’s just little things like that. And in terms of participants, those participants that reach out to the facilitators, I assume to be part of that program again, because it obviously brought them something, they enjoyed it.
Valeria: And for me, especially for this last project we did, about the impacts of COVID. I feel like when we were doing the work, I really enjoyed it and I knew, and I know my group knew that what we were doing was important and useful and we like wrote an article on it and everything. But the back of my head, I was thinking, you know, who's really going to read this or who's going to find this and stuff, but we got the opportunity to present it, not that long ago to, like a pretty big group. And I feel like when I presented it out loud and I spoke about the project out loud, I realized how good it was. Like I was really proud of us. And also all the feedback we got, it just made me realize how important the work we did was and like how it should be spoken about more and, and people were commenting on how the information we had it should, it should be, talked about more and like we should share it more. And it made me realize like, that's actually true. Like we did that work and you know, where, where youth speaking for other Latinx and Indigenous youth. And I feel like, yeah, just presenting it and hearing feedback from people made me realize, you know, the work we do is actually really good and, and useful.
Host: So it sounds like sometimes the impact of your work and the outcomes sort of reveal themselves once you actually begin sharing the information and the stuff you’ve worked on. I want to ask about how your group decides about that dissemination process. How do you decide what to do with the information and stories you’ve collected and how do you decide who to share them with?
Lainey: So when we just did this project, the COVID project, I think it was kind of a little bit of a long process until we decided how we wanted to present our work. We kind of, we all looked at the transcripts. The, the recordings of the focus groups multiple times, came back together, discussed it. I want to say we did it several times. Just back and forth, and collecting these main themes until we kind of decided how we wanted to present it. I think from the very beginning, Jaden had brought up storytelling. That was a really big thing. He brought up and we kinda, I think we knew we wanted to do it, but we left it for a bit and we circled back to it. And once we decided that storytelling, that's why me, Luisa and Annie created our own story. So I don't think there's an exact process of how we come up to the end goal. It just kind of happens a lot of discussions. And then in terms of where we present, Kaitlind kind of does a good job of telling us what's coming up, what conferences. And then if we want to participate in it, she will submit a proposal. If we get accepted, she lets us know and whoever wants to participate can feel free to do it.
Host: So I'm going to ask a follow up question to that. You talked about presenting at conferences and different opportunities, more in the academic sphere. What was it like coming into that sort of setting in the university and talking about your work?
Valeria: Someone mentioned, something about empowering and I feel like that's how it kind of felt, going into the university and presenting, because I feel like even when you tell, you know, family members or friends like about this work, they, I feel like they might think like it's more for adults, but it was pretty empowering being able to present it and being the presenters and the facilitators, because I, I felt like, you know, I had a voice and I worked on this project and it, it's a project that can impact the community positively, you know, it can teach people things. So, yeah, going to present, at the conferences was pretty, pretty empowering and impactful for me.
Luisa: For me as well. I think it's very empowering. And it makes you realize how there is value to the work that we are doing. And it feels like a long process. No, for all of the project, it has felt like there's a lot of steps, but when you do those presentations, it really, and it comes all together. Obviously, it doesn't always go perfectly as you've planned it, but even those mistakes are like, things that you didn't expect. It all just adds up really nicely and makes you realize how important, what, is it is what we're doing.
Jaden: For me after presenting, I usually have a sense of like, wow. I kind of see the, once I see how other people kind of perceive the presentation and all this stuff we've looked at, it kind of changes my perspective and I kind of look at it and in the sense of like, wow, this is really something inspiring. It's really unique and interesting. And it really is something that you don't see a lot. And that's something I really like about it. So it's, it's always a good surprise, I guess, in the end. Inspiring.
Annie: Yeah. I, before presenting, I remember like the first, one that I did for the night school, it was a feeling of, I don't know, I just felt that the, the research that we had done and everything we had put it in, put in the work, I didn't think that people would be interested in it or it would be such a relevant thing. So both, but when I saw, you know, like all the people show up and I was presenting everything that we put in the work and we did everything, yeah, just like everyone said, it felt very empowering. And just how the little things that you do, just everything just comes to an end and you can really present your work and people will do do care about it at the end. They're very interested in what you do. So that at the end, it's kind of like a relief of that, you know, my work wasn't just like every other, let's say in high school, like you do a project, you do the research and it's, it's, determined by a mark. But it's so subjective because one teacher can give you one mark and the other two can give you another. But instead, this work was done and the feedback that you got either positive or negative, it was a way for you to build up on that and make you really reflect. And it wasn't based on a grade. It was mostly based on how, I guess, how, how much work you... at this point, I think I, if I think back on it, the work that I did, I saw it more as a, like a, like myself giving myself a grade, because that way I saw if it was good or bad according to how, people were talking about it. And obviously when you put that much work into it, I don't think it was, it would ever be a bad grade or bad experience because, in the end, you know, everything went according to your plan. But as well as Luisa said, all the little things that may have not gone, it all made the difference to show that our work really does matter. Yeah.
Host: Yeah. It reminds us about the importance of trusting the process because you feel accomplished at the end regardless. What are some of the other ways that you’ve shared your work in the community?
Jaden: In our most recent project... one of the, we made two kind of places to disseminate it. As Lainey said, there was a story. And, another thing that we worked on is a website that we wanted to create a community space. So a place a that Indigenous and Latinx could come and share their artwork in any form, photography, music, painting, and just a place that can kind of in a virtual sense, kind of come together. Cause that's kind of hard to do with COVID. You can't gather in a group. So having this virtual space, almost like a Community Centre, they come together and talk, yourself and how you're dealing with, it is one of the things we did.
Host: What is the future of YPAR?
Lainey: I personally think there's a lot of potential on YPAR for the future, especially with this generation. I think the strong generations have very strong and strong opinions that are different than what past generations have thought about. So I think it's important to give youth the voice they need to be heard because I think eventually they'll do it themselves, they’ll take action themselves. So if we can just kind of give them that platform, that'd be great. I think it’d do wonderful things in society and everything. In terms of where I want it to go, I think I want there to be YPAR everywhere. I want every student in TDSB or any school district to get to experience it at least once. I think it changes a lot. I think it changes how you look at yourself because it’s not just being graded, it’s not just a grade. And if you get a bad grade, you know, you kind of feel bad about it. You feel like you're worth less I think. So in this program, it's not like that. I think it, it gives you more worth. You feel like you're, you know, you're bringing something to the table even though you're at such a young age. So I really hope that there’s more people finding out about it. You know, more teachers can decide to take that step forward and break the regular standards of classroom settings and bring YPAR into their schools.
Jaden: I completely agree with Lainey, I think it needs to be bigger and just more people getting used to it and kind of incorporating it in our everyday lives, because youth have an interesting and unique voice that isn't really heard these days. A lot of older people are making the decisions that affect us, and it's important to look at new and fresh perspectives. And also it gives, YPAR just gives you tools and strategies that can help you and your life overall. I know I’ve definitely got stuff out of this that will help with the rest of my life. So I think that it needs to be everywhere. And just being incorporated more to allow young people to be heard more. I think.
Luisa: I think it's a wonderful experience, and like Jaden and Lainey said, there has to be more of it. It has to be offered in a lot of places and for more students who maybe would have benefited from this opportunity, but they didn't even know about it. And I think it's important for aspects of YPAR to slowly be brought into like the general school system, as that can benefit sometimes students that don't seem to even enjoy school.
Annie: Yeah, I definitely think it should be offered at more places than it is now. It was a very different learning experience that I think a lot more people will benefit from it. And overall, I think it will grow soon because I do see as many of us do see it, potential for it to be bigger and better. And I overall really enjoyed it. And I think a lot more people and more students will too.
Host: Thank you so much for joining us today and sharing this knowledge. Before we wrap up this episode, I wanted to ask if there's anything else you want to share with our listeners related to YPAR or doing this work in the community or in schools?
Luisa: That if maybe this is the way, the first time that they're hearing about this, to do more research on it, spread the word and make sure that if you didn't get the opportunity to participate, that someone close to you can have the opportunity to participate.
Annie: I think one last thing that I like to say is that it was a big challenge for us, I think, to get used to such a different environment that we had, especially during COVID-19 and talking a little bit about the project that we finalized, I think it was really great working with everyone and getting the experience of being a researcher one more time. And the fact that you know, YPAR really gave me and gave all of us the opportunity to do so was really great because I know a lot of people don't get to do this. And even if it doesn't lead to anything after this, hopefully it does, but I just want to say that it really is a good opportunity and a good experience to really get out of your comfort zone and learn new things and become a leader and learn new skills, which is always great. And it really has helped me with all of that.
Host: Well, thank you so much, Luisa, Annie, Jaden, Valeria and Lainey for joining us today and sharing this important insight and knowledge with our listeners. I know that folks are going to take so much away from everything you've shared and really appreciative of you taking the time to be with us today.
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Host: Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of the WhyPAR Podcast. I’m struck by the youth researchers’ reflections about the importance and value of opportunities for youth to be heard through participatory action research. I feel inspired by the way their recent project not only amplified youth voices and supported resiliency during the pandemic, but also helped them to individually build confidence and solidarity across communities of Indigenous and Latinx youth living in T’karonto. Stay tuned for our next episode and see you then!